Hello and welcome to How to Retire. I’m Ben Fuchs, principal of Fuchs Financial. You’ve saved your whole life for this moment, so why are so many people still afraid to retire? My guest is Dr. Dorian Minster, retirement transition coach and author who spent your career helping people answer that exact question. Doctor, thank you for being here. Thank you for inviting me. I love to help people think about this stage of life. So we talked about a little bit. before we got on the show, only got questions to answer. But tell me why this? Like, why did you decide to get here? Because you didn’t always have a doctor. You didn’t always have a PhD, right? So what was that transition? Why did you do it? And, you know, why this? Well, the PhD wasn’t specifically related to the why this, but I really wanted to be able to, you know, just understand people more and understand and… you know, developed my approach of working with people, but I’ve always been really interested in people in life transitions. And, you know, I mean, when you think about it, all of life are transitions. There’s endings, there’s the unknown, the new beginning. And when I turned 60, I was part of the quote, leading edge boomers back in 2006. Thank you for forcing away. Right. And there really were some role models then, although people say there weren’t, but there really were some. But I got really interested in how retirement now, even the concept of retirement, was really changing. It was different from like my parents’ generation. And people were living longer. So I got really interested in retirement, this transition, adult development, positive psychology, and really thinking about how do we make the most of the rest of our lives. I think that’s the big question. So we see this all the time with clients where the numbers say they’re ready, the plan works, and then they still hesitate. Why? Why does that happen? Well, there are a lot of different reasons, but I think fundamentally change is hard. And I think that change is the external event we go through, but the how we go through it is really how we handle transitions. And I think around the retirement thing, there are many, many issues that come to work. One is, who am I without my work? It may be a key part of identity. It may be the basis of kind of community and relationships. I think it’s always helpful to think about the role work plays. And if you think about it, work gets you out of bed in the morning. It gives you a sense of connection, engagement, purpose and meaning, generally meaningful relationships, self-esteem, community, and a sense of agency that you matter. And it can be very daunting to think about, what am I going to do? I mean, I know I don’t want to work anymore. Maybe I’m burnt out. Maybe I’ve even been forced to be retired. But it can be scary. Sure. And, you know, you’ve spent your career helping people, right? You were a social worker before you became a psychologist. How do you help people find agency in retirement? How do you help them find meaning? What does that process look like from a conversational standpoint? Well, usually what happens is I’ll start either with an individual or a couple. And it could be men, women, or a couple and heterosexual couples, same-sex couples. And sometimes it’s, you know, people can be married, sometimes partners, sometimes just good friends that are on the journey with them. The beginning question I always like to ask is, how have you handled transitions in the past? Because I think it’s helpful to think about, since all of life has transitioned, so do you have more trouble with the ending? Do you have more trouble with that unknown, which is often now called the messy middle? Okay. Or with the new beginning, with all of it, none of it? Because I think if you begin to identify where you might get stuck, And it may be different from your partner, so it’s helpful for both of you to talk about that. It will help you have a sort of a sense of how you’re going to approach this stage of life. So can you give me a specific example of somebody who was kind of dealing with a struggle that was dealing with that, I would say, messy middle with the idea of this transition, with the idea of change that they weren’t necessarily comfortable with? And how did your help get them in a better place? Okay, so I can think about… No pressure. No pressure, right. So there’s a wonderful gentleman that I’ve worked with who had been in law and a partner. And he did have a lot of other interests and was really trying to figure out what now. And so we explored what some of the interests were, parts of his identity that weren’t work -related, how he’s dealt with transitions in the past. Did a lot of thinking, talking with his wife, talking with other family members, and began to highlight what were some things he really wanted to have more time to do. But he realized he wasn’t totally ready to stop working. So he ended up being able to negotiate where he worked to give up being a partner and to have a more affiliate role. So a big difference in pay. But that was less important because he really had his finances. I think having your finances in order is key. I always say no matter how much or how little money you have, you should talk to a financial advisor. That’s something I say. Thank you. We didn’t pay her for that. I truly believe that. And so he really set up a wonderful thing. And he’s doing that now. And he says, I’ll be back. when that gig ends and i decide i want to do something else another person as an example realized that there were things he was interested in but he just never had time for it so he did some anticipatory planning and started developing some of the interests that he had had before like singing and like bridge and like bicycle riding and different things like that and you know began developing some of these other identities and also some volunteering so he could take it with him you know so it wouldn’t be i stopped working and then what i mean it’s interesting because i i like to tell i mean you know the goal is how to retire the majority of our clients are retirees but i like to tell people who are younger is that you know you go through these different transitions where you’re in college with roommates, if you’re in college. And then you’ve got roommates after college, and then you transition to living by yourself. And I say, you know, before you transition to go from getting rid of your roommates to living by yourself, you should save that extra money that you’d be spending on that rent by yourself. Get used to having less of that paycheck. See what it’s like to live without it before you make the decision. Because all of a sudden, you may not like that life. And I think it’s interesting that the advice that you give is similar, where, hey, try some of this retirement stuff ahead of time, right? Start the transition now. or you actually like it. Because if you don’t, you know, it’s hard to reverse that choice. Is that a fair? Yeah, no, absolutely. And now that we’re living longer, we’re in what often people call the longevity revolution. And now it’s more the expectation that you’re going to live 10, 20, 30 years post, you know, 62, 65. traditional retirement age. In my parents’ generation, it was the exception. You know, and both my parents died in their 70s. And, you know, when you think about it, Social Security and retirement was based on people. a shorter lifespan. No, the joke was that it started at 65 and the average lifespan was 64. That was the real number back then. Right, right. And so that’s change. And so you don’t want to outlive your money. And so you may actually need N1. to work longer you know if you love what you’re doing um they’re just different ways of doing it i mean some people really don’t want to be controlled by the work so they may want to work in a different way phased retirement sometimes people some some people are forced to have to retire and that’s a whole other you know can of worms The over 50 population is the fastest growing segment of people becoming entrepreneurs. Which is fantastic. I want to be my own boss kind of thing. So, yeah. So, I mean, we understand that finances are important, but it’s obviously not everything. What would you say is the biggest mistake that you see people making? I think not thinking about what are you retiring to. Okay. Or how you want to live this next stage of life. It’s kind of the lifestyle options. And I think that’s an important role for the financial advisor. It’s not just a number, but it’s how you want to live your life so that you’re able to make decisions based on lifestyle issues and choices. So I think that’s important. I think some people truly are just burned out. And there’s nothing wrong with the honeymoon phase if somebody just says, I am done. I don’t want any pressure on me. I just want to travel and do whatever. But what I have found is it’s not unusual. Somebody will come back maybe a few months or even a year later saying, I don’t know, I’m supposed to be happy. Something’s missing. What is it? And it’s generally connection, engagement, and purpose and meaning. So before we finish up with a segment, do you want to just tell us a little bit about the book? So The Couple’s Retirement Puzzle, 10 Must-Have Conversations for Creating an Amazing New Life Together. A colleague and I, we actually, back in 2011, self-published, and then it got picked up by Sourcebooks in 2014. It’s a pretty evergreen book. I mean, it probably needs a few updates of statistics, but it’s pretty much the same. Okay. We wrote it because there were studies coming out saying couples were not talking. And they just, you know, couples weren’t talking about money. They weren’t talking about what’s next. I can promise you that that’s still the case. I know it still is. So maybe a little less so, but not too much less so. So we ended up deciding to write it for couples. But I must say that it’s not just for couples. Because part of what we encourage people to do is to develop your own individual vision. And then have your partner or spouse or whoever’s on the journey with you. do the same and then you kind of talk about it and create a shared vision and the title i think fits with the question you were asking um which is we call it the couple’s retirement puzzle and i love the word puzzle okay because it’s a noun and a verb okay and the noun part tied into sort of what you were asking before there are all these puzzle pieces of our life finances health and wellness time together time apart sexuality, spirituality, responsibilities and obligations with family. There’s long-term relationships, blended families, partners. I mean, the whole demographic of relationships has changed. And all the messy stuff in between, yeah. But what’s so important is that… These puzzle pieces aren’t going to fit together like a jigsaw puzzle, but they impact each other. And I think finances and health and wellness are the two biggest. And then you need to puzzle it out. That’s the verb part. You know, think through what’s important to me. You know, what do I need to let go of so I have more space and time for something else? And I think these issues, I know we were talking about it before, I think these issues parallel what happens when you become an empty nest. You know, if your identity has been predominantly being a parent, and I mean, you’re always going to be a parent, but you’re needed in a different way. And so sometimes it’s the same paradox. We’ll be back with more from Dr. Dorian, including why retirement can be harder on a marriage than people expect. This is How to Retire, brought to you by Fuchs Financial in Middletown, Connecticut. If you’re feeling hesitant about your own retirement timeline, we should talk. We’ll be right back. Congratulations, Nancy and Mark. You’ve been chosen to play the retirement game. All right, first question. How long will you live? Too slow. Spin the longevity wheel. Nancy, will inflation eat your savings alive? I hope not. Let’s spin the slot machine and find out which strategy will you pick? At Fuchs Financial, we don’t spin wheels. We build real plans. Personalized, adaptable, and clear. Welcome back to How to Retire. I’m Ben Fuchs, and I’m here with Dr. Dorian Mintzer. This is one of your specialties, and it surprises people. Retirement can actually hurt a marriage. Why? Well, it’s always a complicated kind of question, but a person can retire, but it’s not just your retirement. It impacts the whole family. And in a relationship, I mean, more women are in the workforce too. And so there are issues about, do we retire together or separately? Or a woman might be at the peak of her career and the guy’s winding down. And there are all kinds of issues. And so… though I think many people have said that COVID has given people an opportunity to see what it’s like to be 24-7, often with each other. But it isn’t just the 24-7. It’s clarifying expectations. It’s like figuring out time together, time apart, the timing of retirement, and the money issues. What will it mean if we’re not earning as much or we’re not earning anything? Well, they’ve got us for that. And so we’ll take care of that. Let’s just stick to you. But it can impact couples. Okay. Because in couples, there can be different money messages that everybody has from the past. Sure. And so there can be conflict around money even before retirement. Common. Which I’m sure you’ve seen more than… Not. Well, I mean, it’s always interesting because we will definitely see two people that have had their own money journey. You know, they’ve they’ve had their each their own accounts and they’ve been managing things their own way. And it’s always interesting when you’re in a room with somebody and it’s like they’re also talking about money with their partner for the first time. Yeah. And so I’m asking about certain accounts like you’ve got that, you know, right. And so it’s interesting, but it’s also important for us. to have those conversations to, again, get both people on the same page before they retire. Before the break, you were talking about how difficult the transition from being a nester to an empty nester. And does that also correlate to the difficulty with retirement? Yeah, because if you think about it, if your focus has changed, and maybe… of what worked in your marriage was you had the children as buffers or you had time apart because of work you know and suddenly that isn’t there or if one or the other of you felt really important at work you know and you don’t have that sense of self-esteem or that sense of agency it’s easy that it gets taken out on a partner not even intentionally it cannot it cannot necessarily even be conscious And the expectations. I’ll give you an example of a couple. So there was a couple that, you know, had talked about retirement. She just was burnt out and ended up, you know, deciding that she just needed to work part-time and he wasn’t ready to retire and he wanted to continue working. And when both were working full-time, at the end of the day, each would go out, you know, with office people and, you know, have drinks and stuff and come home and have dinner together. So they didn’t talk about changing expectations. And so when the wife went part time, you know, she was home and she just had this assumption, I’m going to make these wonderful dinners and he’s going to be so happy and we’re going to eat together. He had no inkling that that’s what she wanted and was assuming. And so he was still going out with his guys thinking, you know, she wanted and needed some time for herself. And so he would come home. And she will have already eaten. And doors were slammed. And, you know, it really got pretty messy. And ultimately, thank goodness, they talked. And they were able to say, we were really working from assumptions. I always say assumptions get people into hot water. You know, they hadn’t clarified their expectations. And once they did, you know, they were able to figure out which nights they were going to eat together, which ones not. So she could make other plans. You know, and then they signed up to do a class together and stuff. But it was the not talking about the expectations that, you know, they were really ready almost to give up. Why is communication so difficult? Well, you know, it’s just difficult. I think often in couples, people get in these polar positions. You know, it’s so easy. even if you’re not even aware of it, my way versus your way, which translates into win versus lose. And if you get stuck in polar positions, there’s constant tension and fighting. I often suggest that it’s good, if you can, to think about the relationship as a we and try to think win-win. So sometimes it’s your way, sometimes my way. It’s not going to balance one for one. But if it gets too lopsided, then there’s that sense of feeling dismissed or resentful and sort of not appreciating and being able. So I think that’s sort of part of what’s at work. I think that people, I think it goes back to what I said really early on. People are afraid of change. sort of that’s wearing the comfortable shoe. And it’s hard sometimes to know how do I bring up a topic in a way where we can really talk and explore different ideas. That’s where I truly do think that the book that I co-authored is helpful. The whole first part of it is Communication 101. It’s like how to have conversations. And we have a little acronym that we came up with, you know, little principles. But I think… You know, sometimes people don’t even know what they’re thinking until they start talking about it. But there can be these heartfelt senses of a truth, not necessarily even thought out, that you just feel like you’ve got to fight for when maybe you don’t have to fight. Thank you. So listen, we’ll be right back with Dr. Dorian’s thoughts on whether you should ever fully retire and what separates the retirees who thrive from the ones who struggle. This is How to Retire, brought to you by Fuchs Financial. Back in a moment. Your financial future doesn’t have to be uncertain. Plan your retirement right. Call now for your own complimentary portfolio review and tax analysis. Welcome back. Final segment. Here with Dr. Dorian, let’s ask the question a lot of our viewers are probably thinking. Should they ever actually fully retire? Again, there’s no right and wrong about that. That’s not what I wanted. I think it really does vary. You know, retirement used to be thought of as sort of retiring from life. you know, when life was shorter. It’s not so much now. Thank you for not being so morbid. I appreciate that. Well, it used to be thought that you got to the top of your ladder. I mean, I love this image from a colleague of mine, Bill Sadler. He said, you used to get to the top of the ladder, you put on your seatbelt, you hold onto the throttle, and you just pray for a safe landing. But now we’ve got these extra years, these bonus years, you know, with a lot of hills and valleys. So there’s a lot of time. And so if you just sit waiting like with an expiration date on your forehead, that’s not a good idea. So for some people, that sense of I matter, I work, but maybe you want to change how you work. Are you aware of any statistics that show that people that work longer live longer? Is there any correlation there that you’re aware of? There are some statistics on it, and I’m not up to date on current. Okay. But there are some statistics of more cognitive decline that happens after people retire, if they don’t retire to something. Got it. If they don’t have a life plan that they set up with you. Right. Or in general. Right. But again, retirement’s not a destination. It’s a journey. And so, you know, maybe you want to work, but you really haven’t been able to find time for life. So you want to do something, but you want it to… be letting you have life and then the work is separate. I mean, there’s something wonderful that can happen as you get older if you let yourself, I mean, you can do it at any age, but it’s like letting yourself really reflect on, you know, the kind of the good, bad, and the ugly of your life, which I think is a helpful thing to do. You know, what are three to five things you’re really proud of? Why? You know, what are things, you know, that you maybe wish… you want to do differently sometimes we have to forgive ourselves or other people for things but what are things that are still out there that you want to learn that you want to experience and that growth mindset that idea that you know i’m not over the hill you know and that you know i hate the word still but that I can do things. Yeah, that I can do things even though I’m retired. That doesn’t keep me from moving forward. I think that’s wonderful. And not internalizing. There’s so much ageism in our country in particular, but I think in the world, but more in our country. And if you kind of drink the Kool-Aid in that sense, if you internalize the ageism, then if you’re a certain age, you may think, I’m old, you know, I can’t do anything. And that is so negative. So that more positive mindset, like, you know, I’m 80. still working, but a can-do attitude and not letting society define you. I even don’t like it when people say 60 is the new 40. 60 is the new 60. 70 is the new 70. It’s like embrace your age. And there’s so much, I think, that older people can share with younger and vice versa. I’m really big on intergenerational connections. But I do think that a belief that A friend of mine who died at age 93 a year ago, her mantra was meaningful work, paid or unpaid through our last breath. And she truly lived that. And I just think it’s a wonderful mantra. And it’s just being engaged. So if you know somebody or you feel like there is somebody in your life that… have a growth mindset that is kind of, how do you have those difficult conversations? How do you make that change? How do you change that mindset? I think your question lends itself to, I mentioned before that the first part of the book I co-wrote is on communication. And I think it’s probably helpful for your listeners. There’s some really, there’s an acronym BLAST that we use. And I think it’s helpful in relationships. What is the acronym? BLAST, B-L-A-S-T. Have a blast when you talk. Okay. So B is blaming gets in the way. Okay. So the first word of advice is whenever possible, try to use I statements. And these are things not just with your partner. It can be with your children at work, wherever. The L is listen without interrupting. We all are not necessarily born good visitors. In your field, in my field, you know, you got to be trained. to be a good listener. And particularly if you’ve been in a relationship for a long time, you can hear the first three words and you say, I know where this is going. And you tune out and you think of your brilliant response. I mean, we all do it at times. However, you could be right and you could be wrong. The A has a few parts to it. One I mentioned earlier, don’t make assumptions. I really think assumptions get people into hot water. agree to disagree sometimes, and appreciate what you’re hearing, even if you don’t agree. The S is set a safe space to talk. It could be in the house. It could be over dinner, or it could be walking. I mean, no right and wrong. And the T kind of goes with the S, which is, and set a time limit. I mean, if you’re not used to talking, just say, you know, I’d like to talk. Let’s just take 10 minutes. We can come back to it. That’s the beauty of relationships. You know, you can come back to it. One final question. If there’s one takeaway that you want the people watching, if there’s one thing that you feel like is the most important to the last 80 years and all the education that you have, what is the one thing that you want people to know? Appreciate your life and the perspective of your life, you know, to really give yourself time to reflect and the term harvest your wisdom, you know, and to think about, you know, kind of who, what you can still contribute and who you, you know, who you are and, you know, to figure out how to have joy. You know, there’s the whole thing now about we have lifespan, health span, and joy span, you know, and to really quality of life is so important. And just because you’re a certain age doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t till the end have that sense of joy, connection, engagement, purpose, and meaning. Appreciate the life you have. Thank you, Dr. Warren. That’s it for this episode of How to Retire. If any of this at home, the fear, the identity shift, the conversation you’ve been putting off with your spouse, don’t wait to start having them. And if your retirement timeline is tied up with some of this uncertainty, Fuchs Financial is ready for that conversation too. I’m Ben Fuchs, plan smart, retire happy. See you next time.
